Curse

Patccmoi · Mar 02, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

This is a thread to talk about dagger skills balance, mostly the lead and off-hands which just never see play atm. Ensign posted in another thread that the lead-offhand-dual is too fragile to see play, and i agree with the current skill stats, but i believe they could easily be balanced so that it's not the case.

The way i see it, dagger combos should work this way:

straight offhand + dual should be used for spike assist

2 x offhand + 2 x dual for killing combo (i still think it shouldn't allow for straight kill like SP-BoA does though, but more like 400-450 damage and degen)

lead-offhand-dual should be viable for pressure for combos that you can repeat over and over. Lead-offhand-dual DOESN'T have the killing power to take down a target straight, no matter which you use, so it shouldn't have a long recharge cause this just screws up the viability of the skills and it does make them far too fragile if the combo gets screwed. Assassins are frail, so if they're able to combo on someone over and over, it SHOULD hurt. You always have the option to pressure away a sin that is doing high damage, something you can't easily do on warriors. If they combo every 10s, well they don't really hurt more by using lead-offhand-dual than just offhands-duals so there's no point to use those combos. I think the lead-offhand-duals should really allow for constant high damage skill spamming that force you to shutdown the sin or pressure him away.

So with that in mind, here's what i'd personally propose for balance on the lead and offhand. I think most duals are actually balanced at this point (have some doubts about BoS, but meh, been discussed a lot elsewhere so won't start another debate on it here).

[skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill] - Reduce damage to +8..18..21

Reasoning : This is the only offhand i believe requires a nerf. Cause the effect is EXTREMELY good being a straight offhand that also basically pays for your next dual, that i think it shouldn't do as much damage as it does now. It would still be a minor nerf overall and the skill would still see play a lot imo, cause the energy it gives is sooo good for the recharge (used on recharge it rivals some emanagement elites on top of opening for a dual)

[skill]Unsuspecting Strike[/skill] - change to :

5/4 : Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +19...29 damage. If your target was above 90% Health you deal an additional 15...63 damage and lose 5 energy.

Reasoning : This way, Unsuspecting is much more usable for pressure damage. You pay 10E only when you actually do heavy damage, but you don't pay 10E just to do +30 damage afterwards, which is a waste. The recharge makes it a viable lead for pressure atm, only the costs limits it.

[skill]Black Mantis Thrust[/skill] - change to :

5/4 : Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +10...27..32 damage. If target foe is suffering from a Hex, that foe is Crippled for 3...13 seconds.

Reasoning : It becomes a useful lead for pressure too. Lots of crippling potential with various hexes, can become a viable replacement for Siphon Speed if you want another hex instead. The energy allows to use it for pressure, and the damage is what BLS actually is.

[skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill] - This one could stay as it is. I'd also see it viable reworked this way though:

5/4 : Offhand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +10...34..42 damage. If target foe is suffering from a Hex, that foe is Poisoned for 5...17..21 seconds.

Reasoning : I don't like the fact that there's 2 straight offhand requiring a hex for condition because it leads to mindless build like SP spikers. This way, it'd actually be a good combo to pressure with Black Mantis Thrust. You hex a target and you can cripple-poison while doing good damage. Followed by Twisting Fangs, it can do some interesting condition stack.

[skill]Disrupting Stab[/skill] - 2 suggestions for this one:

5/.5/10: Lead Attack. If this attack hits, it deals +5..10..11 damage and interrupts target foe's action. If that action was a Spell, it is disabled for 3...9 seconds.

5/6: Lead Attack. If this attack hits, it deals +8..18..21 damage and interrupts target foe's action. If that action was a Spell, it is disabled for 3...9 seconds.

Reasoning : First it needs some damage even if minor, otherwise there's hardly any point to have that be a lead attack. And to be used to interrupt, either it must be fairly spammable or have a good activation time.

[skill]Desperate Strike[/skill] - Needs a serious buff. My suggestions:

5/6: Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +8..18..21 damage. If you have less than 50...74% Health, you deal +10...30..37 damage and this attack results in a critical hit.

or

5/6: Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +8..18..21 damage. If you have less than 50...74% Health, you deal +10...30..37 damage and your next 2 attack skills can't be blocked

Reasoning : This way, at least it always deals some damage. The fact that it results in a Critical Hit means that when you're low health you're sure to have enough energy after using it to chain your next skill. I wouldn't put it below 6s recharge mostly to prevent someone that would stay at like 75% health to spam it non-stop cause the damage is quite serious (would hit around 80-90 at high DM). I'd rather have the second version, would give it a nice utility, but i'm not sure how the mechanic would be implemented.

[skill]Fox Fangs[/skill] - Needs a buff, being an off-hand requiring a lead. My suggestion:

5/5

Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. Fox Fangs cannot be "blocked" and strikes for +10...34..42 damage if it hits.

Reasoning : Better recharge, matching Dancing Daggers. The damage is on par with standard high damage melee attacks, which i think is fine considering it's an offhand.

[skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill] - Need a recharge buff:

5/5

Lead Attack. If this attack hits, target foe takes +10...26 damage. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, this attack cannot be "blocked".

Reasoning : I think the damage is fine for a 'can't be blocked' attack. With 5s recharge, it'd be better.

[skill]Golden Skull Strike[/skill]

10/15

Elite Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits, you deal +10..34..42 damage. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment and this attack hits, target foe is dazed for 4...9 seconds.

Reasoning : Plz, it's a 10E elite on 15s recharge. Let it do some damage so that it can be part of a killing combo at least. I'd consider lowering recharge to 12s, but it might be too good for a dazing skill.

[skill]Golden Lotus Strike[/skill]

5/6

Lead Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17 damage. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, you gain 5...11 Energy.

Reasoning : With a decent recharge, it'd be more useful, especially since it's just a lead AND requires an enchantment. You still wouldn't net much more energy than with BLS over time, and it could allow for a build that wants to pressure without going 13 CS. You'd sacrifice a bit of damage by using this for lead, but with a lead giving you energy like that you could go for 8 CS and still have a decent energy return. Would allow for builds that want to use high Shadow Arts or Deadly Arts, which is really hard atm considering you nearly always need 13 CS and high DM.

[skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill]

10/6, same description

Reasoning : As opposed to the Black having often a better requirement (you nearly always want a hex like Siphon Speed or SP) and better effects, GPS would make up by its spammability. The cost is still pretty high, but with 6s recharge it could be nice if you want to use more utility skills. You could alternate it with 2 duals, for example Twisting Fangs to spike and Horns to knockdown, or use GPS-CS to pressure decently and have an ok spike assist while still having lots of room for utility (since you'd just need 2 attack skills). At 8s, it's just slightly too long to allow that.

[skill]Jagged Strike[/skill]

5/2

Lead Attack. If Jagged Strike hits, you deal +5..10..11 damage and your target suffers from Bleeding for 3...8 seconds.

Reasoning : This should be THE spammable lead attack. The effect is pretty weak, the damage nothing spectacular, but with 2s recharge it means you could just use it all you want. If it's blocked, nobody cares, you use it again 2s later. And it would allow to have a lead that can match DB's recharge (though you can't realistically go through 3 attack skills every 2s even in IAS, it would still help).

[skill]Jungle Strike[/skill]

5/4

Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...22..26 damage. If it hits a foe that was Crippled, it does +1..25..33 damage.

Reasoning : This has no effect except the damage and must meet a condition requirement to work. The damage if you meet the condition is decent, but it should be more spammable, especially if it gets blocked. Would match BMT recharge this way.

[skill]Leaping Mantis Sting[/skill] - i see 2 options on this:

5/4 or 5/.5/6

Lead Attack. If Leaping Mantis Sting hits, target foe takes +10..22..26. If this attack strikes a moving foe, that foe is Crippled for 3...13 seconds.

Reasoning : This attack should be spammable. The cripple only works on moving foes. It would also be nice to have it slightly less spammable though but with a short activation time, making the cripple easier to connect.

[skill]Repeating Strike[/skill] - i see 2 options on this too:

5E

Off-Hand Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. For every consecutive Repeating Strike, you strike for +1..4..5 more damage (max +45). If it misses, it takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge.

OR

Off-Hand Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. After 3 consecutive Repeating Strike, your target is dazed for 4..9..10 seconds. If it misses, it takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge.

Reasoning : The point of this skill is to spam it. It would be nice if there's an increasing effect to the damage you get considering all you do is DPS with it, and it would go with the 'Repeating Strike' idea. Personally i like the 2nd option a lot more cause i don't like just mindless +damage skill. Would give an interesting non-elite daze option, but your target would have time to react to it since you have to connect 3 Repeating Strikes in a row and if one is screwed the skill goes on a 10s recharge. And i like the idea of hitting on someone's head till they're numb and disoriented =p

[skill]Wild Strike[/skill]

5/2

Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...30 damage and any Stance being used by target foe ends.

Reasoning : Would go along with Jagged Strike as the 'reliable' offhand. If it's blocked, you don't have to wait, you reuse it. It would allow to do Jagged-Wild and various duals for different effects and you know that if your lead or offhand doesn't connect, it's not actually fragile since you can use it again nearly right away. And it would be nice to have it on 2s recharge so that you have better chances to end blocking stances with it by spamming it like a madman till it connects (would eat your energy if it takes too long though).

So that's the main things i'd do if i had to rework the dagger skills. Mainly, i believe that the lead and offhands requiring a lead should be fairly spammable to prevent the fragility of the combos. And since you don't straight kill with a lead-offhand-dual combo, there's nothing wrong with being able to do it over and over, considering you have to stick in melee with the frailest melee class that can very likely be pressured away if need be. This would allow for skilled assassin play, doing good pressure using 3-4 attack skills and packing 2-3 utility skills (and there's some decent options now, though SA and DA can still use some buffs in general). It seems to me like a lot of viable options would be there to combo using low recharge skills like this with various effects.

Keithark · Mar 02, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

All above need nerf, no reason a sin should kill a Warrior with 540 health in 3 skills as they can do now....no other class can do this so wy should sin? I don't play a warrior in PvP but i think it is silly to see a sin pop in on a tanks and kill it in 2 seconds and see 3 players gang up on a sin and can't touch it. I am actually thinking of making a sin in PvE since the last buffs they got (something I said I would never do)

Patccmoi · Mar 02, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

All above need nerf, no reason a sin should kill a Warrior with 540 health in 3 skills as they can do now....no other class can do this so wy should sin? I don't play a warrior in PvP but i think it is silly to see a sin pop in on a tanks and kill it in 2 seconds and see 3 players gang up on a sin and can't touch it. I am actually thinking of making a sin in PvE since the last buffs they got (something I said I would never do)

... what?

A warrior with 540 health is one of the few things that can actually survive a sin combo... and no sin ever kills in 3 skills, it takes at least 4 attack including 2 duals for straight kills. The above suggestions are nearly all for lead and offhands that don't actually allow this kind of 4 attack straight kill combos and are in the vast majority absolutely unused.

And 3 players gang up on a sin and can't touch it? What? I think i better not start arguing on that cause it doesn't seem to make much sense...

djbartek · Mar 02, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

All above need nerf, no reason a sin should kill a Warrior with 540 health in 3 skills as they can do now....no other class can do this so wy should sin? I don't play a warrior in PvP but i think it is silly to see a sin pop in on a tanks and kill it in 2 seconds and see 3 players gang up on a sin and can't touch it. I am actually thinking of making a sin in PvE since the last buffs they got (something I said I would never do)

I just "love" people who judge assassins as overpowered just because they were owned by SP-BoA.

Black Lotus, Unsuspecting, Black Mantis- agree.

Black Spider- If it was offhand requiring a lead, I think it could be a lot better. I personally never used it(I don't play SP-BoA; not because its mindless, but because it's boring like hell

), the only time I use black offhand is Moebius-DB, where Black Lotus is far superior imo.

Disrupting Stab- could be useful, but I still wouldn't use it as my Lead of choice(neither as utility).

Desperate Strike- I also like the second version more

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

- i see 2 options on this too:

5E

Off-Hand Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. For every consecutive Repeating Strike, you strike for +1..4..5 more damage (max +45). If it misses, it takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge.

OR

Off-Hand Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. After 3 consecutive Repeating Strike, your target is dazed for 4..9..10 seconds. If it misses, it takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge.

Reasoning : The point of this skill is to spam it. It would be nice if there's an increasing effect to the damage you get considering all you do is DPS with it, and it would go with the 'Repeating Strike' idea. Personally i like the 2nd option a lot more cause i don't like just mindless +damage skill. Would give an interesting non-elite daze option, but your target would have time to react to it since you have to connect 3 Repeating Strikes in a row and if one is screwed the skill goes on a 10s recharge. And i like the idea of hitting on someone's head till they're numb and disoriented =p

Pat, don't you think that the second one is a bit TOO STRONG?

First of, I will say: I think that daze is grossly overestimated by about 99% of GW community and that the only places where it can be REALLY useful(they won't be removed too fast to actually HAVE some effect) are the ones called "PVP for noobs":RA, TA, AB. But...

RS+IAS+WotEP=free ~9 sec daze, AND according to your description it should REAPPLY per 3 RS in a row... With IAS, those 3 attacks would take about 2-3 sec. Do I smell new "FPE non-elite Temple Strike"?

Golden Fox, Fox Fangs- they need it, but I have a worry that it will also put a certain Elite connected with fox even more unwanted(your proposition to remove"if faill..." component is good...FOR START. This Elite needs imo some more love than just it to be worth taking over others).

Right now sins need also imo 3 more things: Buffs to 80% of their Elites, some tweaks to DA and SA skills and decrease of that DAMN LONG recharges on shadowsteps(to actually make them playable, not just "one per minute" wonder).

- djbartek

Patccmoi · Mar 02, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Black Spider- If it was offhand requiring a lead, I think it could be a lot better. I personally never used it(I don't play SP-BoA; not because its mindless, but because it's boring like hell

), the only time I use black offhand is Moebius-DB, where Black Lotus is far superior imo.

If BSS was +10..34..42 with 4s recharge only, it WOULD be very good imo. Far better than it is now for the effect itself (more damage and much much more spammable).

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Pat, don't you think that the second one is a bit TOO STRONG?

First of, I will say: I think that daze is grossly overestimated by about 99% of GW community and that the only places where it can be REALLY useful(they won't be removed too fast to actually HAVE some effect) are the ones called "PVP for noobs":RA, TA, AB. But...

RS+IAS+WotEP=free ~9 sec daze, AND according to your description it should REAPPLY per 3 RS in a row... With IAS, those 3 attacks would take about 2-3 sec. Do I smell new "FPE non-elite Temple Strike"?

Oh ya, the skill should disable itself after the daze, i forgot to mention that. It should read something like

"Off-Hand Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...26 damage. After 3 consecutive Repeating Strike, your target is dazed for 4..9..10 seconds. If it misses or causes daze it takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge."

If it's non-ending daze it'd likely be broken (though honestly if they let you do 6 in a row on someone... but could be possible with like Sight beyond Sight + Guided Weapon from an ally or something, so ya it would be disabled once it caused daze)

As for :
RS+IAS+WotEP=free ~9 sec daze

You'd need at least 1 extra offhand (for RS) so you require 4 skills AND they must allow you to hit 4 times in a row on your target BEFORE the daze. I mean, you can Temple Strike a monk without them having much time to react, but can you honestly hit a monk 4 times before they do something about it, or you get blind or they receive a block enchant or weapon of warding, etc...? If Repeating fails to connect once it's over for the daze part. Repeating wouldn't allow for a 'surprise' or straight daze, so i don't think it's that bad at all. I mean, i could say Archer's Signet + Concussion Shot is free daze for 25s but it's not seeing use much!

And if anything, RS this way would give some point to Fox's Promise =p

Symbol · Mar 02, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Most suggestions are good, but I think jagged strike is still lame. I don't care about the difference between a 2s and a 4s recharge and the effect is too weak to bother with.

I think doubling the bleeding duration would be interesting, that way it could fit in condition pressure builds since the short recharge means that it's always available when switching targets.

I also think that LMS and Disrupting Stab should definitely be fast attacks instead of regular speed attacks with better recharge. Actually disrupting stab could use 5/.5/8-IMO no lead should have longer than a 8s recharge time unless it offers a truly powerful effect.

Keithark · Mar 02, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

I just "love" people who judge assassins as overpowered just because they were owned by SP-BoA.

I was a elly and the sin didn't bug me at all..but he pop in and kill the monk before anyone but the necro got a hit on him, then for some reason he went after the tank and killed him, then he hit the necro with i think 1 or 2 skills before me and the rezzed warrior killed him..the rest of his team was weak but he took so much of our focus that we were only able to kill him and their monk and then we got wiped. Then I went to RA and using several of the same skills that sin was using and a couple I chose I proceded to do the same type of thing to opponents in RA (yes I know caliber of players in RA stinks) All I am saying is that the last set of buffs the sin got made it IMO overepowered. And yes I am one of the old school people on here that think a warrior should be able to deal and take more damage than any other frontline character..they are a warrior for Christ sake! I don't do much PvP anyway but now that all my PvE stuff that I wanted to do in NF is done I got until next chapter to kill time and was upset to see sins about 1.5 times as powerful as they were last time I did any PvP and in that same time warriors are about .75 % as powerful as they were

Bugeater · Mar 02, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Here's my take on your suggestions:

Black Lotus Strike - good change
Unsuspecting Strike - good change
Black Mantis Thrust - with the damage bump and a 4 sec recharge, it should stay 10e. As you mentioned the hex condition isn't too menacing and perma-cripple shouldn't be cheap. Maybe do something like you did with Unsuspecting where you only pay the extra 5e if the condition is met.
Black Spider Strike - I like the rework better, but I'd bump the recharge to 5 or 6. That's a hefty amount of damage and good conditional effect on an easy condition.
Disrupting Stab - I like the first option much better than the second.
Desperate Strike - Really like the second option.
Fox Fangs - Good change
Golden Fox Strike - Good change
Golden Skull Strike - Good change
Golden Lotus Strike - Too good of a buff. Net 6 energy every 6 seconds is elite level e-management. I agree leads need good recharges, so drop the energy to 2..6..7
Golden Phoenix Strike - Good change, 5s would be better IMO.
Jagged Strike - I disagree with Symbol on this one. I like the 2s recharge, but I think the damage+bleed is fine - maybe even a hair too high. It's actually good DPS on such a short recharge (albeit expensive). And either you have a bleed that sticks, or this doubles as e-denial for the guy taking off the bleed.
Jungle Strike - I think 4s synergizes too well with BMT, especially a 5e BMT. I'd tone down the damage a bit. 6..18..22 / 1..21..29 would be closer to balanced.
Leaping Mantis Sting - Good change
Repeating Strike - Wow, that's some odd suggestions. The thing is Repeating is actually really good the way that it is, if it weren't for the 15s penalty. I think all you really have to do is drop the penalty to 8 or 10 seconds and it'd be good.
Wild Strike - I like the recharge, but really don't like the spammable de-stance. Maybe add a condition to the stance removal. I'm thinking "if target is under the effects of an enchantment", but that might be too stiff - "if target is suffering from a condition" would probably be better.

In addition to a lot of these, I'd also like to see some of the lead attacks be redefined as "Melee attack. ... This skill counts as a lead attack." Desperate Strike, Golden Fox Strike, and Leaping Mantis would be alright.

Patccmoi · Mar 02, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

The thing is, i don't believe in the viability of a 10E lead attack. Unsuspecting wasn't too bad cause the damage when target is over 90% is huge (which is why i still give a -5E loss on it, cause this IS worth 10E), but what you wanna do with Lead-offhand-dual is use REPEATEDLY your combo, and 10E just doesn't let you do that. The cripple is still conditional. I dunno, i'd rather tone down the damage a bit and put it 5E if it's really too good than leaving it 10E, but i'm not convinced it is. At 10E i can assure you that it just wouldn't see play, not when Siphon Speed exists (and is basically a cripple in hex form that gives you a very good speed buff...). Assassins have very little reason to Cripple with such a cheap, spammable hex snare.

You're likely right for Golden Lotus Strike, a small energy gain nerf would be better with a lower recharge. I wouldn't go as low as you though, maybe 4..9..11 or at worse 3..8..9. The damage is low on the skill AND you need to be enchanted. And you can't easily compare energy with sins and other classes because Assassins are energy engines, they use a LOT of energy but they recharge it quickly. That's how they were designed. And going for lead-offhand-dual spam eats your energy incredibly fast too. I mean just look at their primary attribute, a sin that keeps attacking a kiting foe (in Siphon Speed that's easy) can easily have in the 2 digits of energy regen just swinging his daggers. Critical Strike, with Zealous daggers, gives you potentially a net 9E every 6s which is nearly 5 pips of regen. This is balanced by the fact that sins have to keep attacking to have access to their energy and so they can't use /X and spam spells like heal party or the like.

I think you're right about Wild Strike. At 2s recharge (even at 4s really) it'd be nice if there was a condition for the stance ending. Target suffering from a condition seems like a nice requirement, and it's easily met for sin too (since Wild Strike would likely be paired with Jagged Strike...). Honestly it's already a very decent stance removal in its current form, it's just unused cause the leads all suck in the end.

As for the +damage numbers, like what you consider too high for Jungle Strike, don't forget that they might be high but they're coming on a dagger. What this does is only make them better against high AL targets so that sins are decent at killing warriors and Paragons too, but against a 60-70AL target a +50 damage dagger attack isn't actually more powerful than a +42 damage Axe or Sword attack. So while the +damage might seem really high on some skill, the base damage isn't really interesting at all. A +10..26 damage Scythe Attack is much more powerful than a +10..42 damage dagger, and Scythes have multiple 5/4 scythe attacks with damage ranging in the +10..30 that are all independant on others. And the double strike that you get with dagger auto-attack aren't there when you constantly combo, so for short recharge lead-offhand-dual combos you have to pretty much ignore it. That's why i don't think that it's really problematic to give a 5/4 offhand serious +damage, cause in the end all it means is that it's gonna be worth a decent attack from another weapon.

Bugeater · Mar 02, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

And the double strike that you get with dagger auto-attack aren't there when you constantly combo, so for short recharge lead-offhand-dual combos you have to pretty much ignore it.

Can you explain that. I haven't watched the numbers close enough to verify, but I thought that you double striked on leads and offhands as much as auto-attacks. That was a big basis for my concern with over buffing lead/offhand damage.

Riotgear · Mar 02, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

I just "love" people who judge assassins as overpowered just because they were owned by SP-BoA.

I just "love" people who immediately shoot down anyone who complains about something being overpowered by claiming that they're just "mad coz they got owned." This is coincidentally the favorite line of people defending something that's overpowered.

Quote:

and decrease of that DAMN LONG recharges on shadowsteps(to actually make them playable, not just "one per minute" wonder).

Melee has two major limitations: Kiting and positioning. Shadow steps take one of those two out of the equasion, making them extremely powerful already. Even a 45-second recharge doesn't stop people from running telespike with Death's Charge, at 20 it would be even worse.

You want to lower the recharge to 20? Great. Stick "Lose all adrenaline" on all of them.

As I said in the other thread, part of the problem is that duals are the money skills on any assassin bar. Offhands are absurdly weak, but the bigger problem is that any skill preceding a dual is essentially fluff, the same way Sever Artery is just fluff to hit Gash immediately after. As long as the most effective way to run a sin bar is to launch as many duals as possible, the best bars are always going to be the ones that skip as many of the mechanics getting in the way of that.

The only real solution is to either remove the shortcuts, forcing everything to lead-offhand-dual-impale and then balance around that, or make the power of all three combo components roughly the same so it doesn't matter.

If pressure is the objective, strength flattening is still needed, and offhands should be changed to work after duals as well as leads.

Patccmoi · Mar 02, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I just "love" people who immediately shoot down anyone who complains about something being overpowered by claiming that they're just "mad coz they got owned." This is coincidentally the favorite line of people defending something that's overpowered.

Actually if you read the post the reason he said that is cause Keithark basically said 'no don't buff anything cause sins are overpowered'. Which is just wrong cause basically he says 'sins are overpowered' cause 1 sin build is overpowered (which i actually propose to nerf, at least slightly, by nerfing BLS and possibly reworking BSS).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Melee has two major limitations: Kiting and positioning. Shadow steps take one of those two out of the equasion, making them extremely powerful already. Even a 45-second recharge doesn't stop people from running telespike with Death's Charge, at 20 it would be even worse.

You want to lower the recharge to 20? Great. Stick "Lose all adrenaline" on all of them.

I'm always not sure about Shadowsteps. I think that they're actually decent at 45s recharge personally. I used Dark Prison consistently since it was lowered at 45s and always loved it. The thing is i don't RELY on my shadowstep. It's just a utility option that you can use when it's the good time to do it. For example i'd combo with Siphon Speed, but then i see flag runner with flag i'll Dark Prison on him and combo asap. I have no problem with them being at 45s the way i always used them. I agree that if the recharge is too low on them they actually become problematic. But then again the problem is that lots of people can play other PvP type than GvG where the duration is much more important. I'd be much less willing to use a 45s recharge shadowstep in TA where it's likely going to mean using it once in a game, at best twice. But overall i don't think the cooldown on shadowsteps are that bad and if it's lowered to like 30s i think it would be too good. I agree with the lose adrenaline part though, just like they plan to nerf Strength IAS so that sins don't have an easy use of them, it seems fine to nerf shadowsteps in a way that will weaken them for warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

As I said in the other thread, part of the problem is that duals are the money skills on any assassin bar. Offhands are absurdly weak, but the bigger problem is that any skill preceding a dual is essentially fluff, the same way Sever Artery is just fluff to hit Gash immediately after. As long as the most effective way to run a sin bar is to launch as many duals as possible, the best bars are always going to be the ones that skip as many of the mechanics getting in the way of that.

The only real solution is to either remove the shortcuts, forcing everything to lead-offhand-dual-impale and then balance around that, or make the power of all three combo components roughly the same so it doesn't matter.

If pressure is the objective, strength flattening is still needed, and offhands should be changed to work after duals as well as leads.

I don't agree. I mean look at the skill balance i propose and tell me those are weak skills that are just fillers for duals. Most of them are good in their own right. Atm most are fillers and have stupid recharge, which is the big problem and that's why lead and offhand requiring a lead need to be balanced so that they're NOT fillers. I mean, when you look at Golden Fox Strike and it has 8s recharge when it's a weaker skill than most warrior or dervish skills that are 5/4 (or sometimes even less, hell Power Attack is better than about every single lead, can be used with any weapon, and is 5/3), something is wrong.

See, what i propose is exactly so that it's NOT the most effective way to throw as many duals as possible anymore. If you use the skips, you have to use longer recharge combos, while the lead-offhand would allow for continuous pressure with decent skills. I mean, you could use BLS-dual-BSS-dual and combo once every 12-15s, but you could use Lead-Offhand-Dual-Lead-Offhand-Dual 2-3 times over the same duration doing overall much more damage. I think that it's fine for dual to be superior skills but harder to reach as long as the skill to reach them ARE worth it on their own and not just 'a way to reach a dual', and as long as dual are still decently balanced (in general i think that's fine now, i'm only doubtful about BoS).

I disagree with offhands working after dual too. I mean, basically every offhand would become Moebius Strike quality and then there would never be ANY point to lead attacks. You pay an elite slot to have access to that.

furbat · Mar 02, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I don't agree. I mean look at the skill balance i propose and tell me those are weak skills that are just fillers for duals. Most of them are good in their own right. Atm most are fillers and have stupid recharge, which is the big problem and that's why lead and offhand requiring a lead need to be balanced so that they're NOT fillers. I mean, when you look at Golden Fox Strike and it has 8s recharge when it's a weaker skill than most warrior or dervish skills that are 5/4 (or sometimes even less, hell Power Attack is better than about every single lead, can be used with any weapon, and is 5/3), something is wrong.

Ok, this sums up my oppinion of your suggested changes.

Assasin += Dervish.

Just a thought on the effect of lowering the cost and cooldown of dagger attacks to make combos more spamable. I just don't think the answer to ballancing assasins is lowering the cooldowns on dagger skills. That just gives them a greater ability to spam attacks making them into dervishes + assasins.

Zuranthium · Mar 03, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115474

~Z

Symbol · Mar 03, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Ok, this sums up my oppinion of your suggested changes.

Assasin += Dervish.

Just a thought on the effect of lowering the cost and cooldown of lead attacks to make combos more spamable.

There's only so much differentiation you can get-they're both AL70 melee classes that rely on energy attacks.

Hyunsai · Mar 03, 2007, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

just like they plan to nerf Strength IAS so that sins don't have an easy use of them,.

We already have news of the upcoming updates? If yes could we have a link please.

djbartek · Mar 03, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Can you explain that. I haven't watched the numbers close enough to verify, but I thought that you double striked on leads and offhands as much as auto-attacks. That was a big basis for my concern with over buffing lead/offhand damage.

Leads and offhands are SINGLE attacks, they never double strike.

twicky_kid · Mar 09, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Sins have a fundamental flaw in their design. They created a 3 hit attack chain (lead>off-hand>dual) with 8 slots for skills. That leaves with a huge problem. No 3 hit attack chain will kill or even come close to killing the target.

Off-hand>dual is necessary for sins to be a viable class in pvp. Now lets say they make everything go back to lead>off-hand>dual and pump the dmg so they would be viable. Now explain why you would run a sin primary when a range could spam the high dmg attack chains all day?

See the point? If they didn't do the off-hand>dual sins would be trash. If they pump the dmg r/a become too powerful. You could balance the energy cost for expertise but then you create a situation where you must run expertise for them to be viable again shutting out the sin primary.

There are simply not enough room on a sins bar for a lead>off>dual chain to exist to fulfill its job (killing the target) and be able to pack enough utility to survive.

Patccmoi · Mar 09, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Sins have a fundamental flaw in their design. They created a 3 hit attack chain (lead>off-hand>dual) with 8 slots for skills. That leaves with a huge problem. No 3 hit attack chain will kill or even come close to killing the target.

Off-hand>dual is necessary for sins to be a viable class in pvp. Now lets say they make everything go back to lead>off-hand>dual and pump the dmg so they would be viable. Now explain why you would run a sin primary when a range could spam the high dmg attack chains all day?

See the point? If they didn't do the off-hand>dual sins would be trash. If they pump the dmg r/a become too powerful. You could balance the energy cost for expertise but then you create a situation where you must run expertise for them to be viable again shutting out the sin primary.

There are simply not enough room on a sins bar for a lead>off>dual chain to exist to fulfill its job (killing the target) and be able to pack enough utility to survive.

R/A still has lower damage (no crits, etc.) and doesn't have energy reduction on hexes or other useful sin skills (Impale, Siphon Speed, Expose Defenses) and those would empty his energy fast. Crit Strike is actually sufficient for Assassins to do their attack chains over and over while using other skills.

R/A also locks your secondary and prevents some really useful things (like, having a good IAS!)

Atm i use 4 attack skills on Moebius sin and i have enough room for utility and to survive, so i'm not too sure what you're talking about. If i could only use 3 attack skills and it was viable i'd have so much utility slot...

twicky_kid · Mar 13, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

R/A still has lower damage (no crits, etc.) and doesn't have energy reduction on hexes or other useful sin skills (Impale, Siphon Speed, Expose Defenses) and those would empty his energy fast. Crit Strike is actually sufficient for Assassins to do their attack chains over and over while using other skills.

R/A also locks your secondary and prevents some really useful things (like, having a good IAS!)

Atm i use 4 attack skills on Moebius sin and i have enough room for utility and to survive, so i'm not too sure what you're talking about. If i could only use 3 attack skills and it was viable i'd have so much utility slot...

R/A still have crits. I don't know where you got the idea that they didn't. Any points into a weapon attribute raises the chance for crits. A sin's crit attribute simply gives the Sin a 2nd roll to crit (remember % chances do not stack). With the dagger attribute you get a double strike chance, increased dmg, and a crit chance based on the attribute lvl.

R/A have a higher dps and sustained dmg. Sin primaries have very low dps and sustained dmg. I was simply pointing out what would happen if they were to fix the 3 hit chains by increasing the dmg. It would make the sustained dmg and dps from a R/A even more powerful.

You basicly proved my point for me with the Moebius strike comment. Moebius effectively gives you more attack skills to use. Try killing some one with a lead>off-hand>dual combo without moebius. Without being able to use Moebius to recharge everything so you can use it again or at leas 2 dual strikes in a combo you are not going to be killing anything.

Sins, because of their design flaw, are either going to be too weak or too strong. I don't think a middle ground will ever be found for this class.